September 30th @ 21:00 UTC - Open Call for Co-Design w/ Stakeholder Communities
cambrian explosion
Mamading 19:18
Holochain Dev Pulse 151 for the tech heads: https://blog.holochain.org/dev-pulse-151-network-improvements-in-0-5-5-and-0-5-6/
Ian to Everyone 19:18
iroh https://github.com/n0-computer/iroh
Kevin Triplett 19:18
https://ayra.forum/
Brandon Nørgaard 19:20
What are some of the central issues? There are so many but just to toss out a few of the major considerations that P2P frameworks often have ways of dealing with: * E2EE * P2P mechanisms * Local-first * Data storage patterns * Data formats * Permissions * Signatures, etc. So perhaps we could look at these and other considerations in more detail and how the various P2P frameworks deal with these. Also we could start with an articulation of some use cases. Is there any document that has begun to outline this already?
why we do p2p
power imballances necessar for social cohesion
straate equitable power
underlyin strata a walk away stack
Zach Miltz 19:18
https://github.com/n0-computer/iroh
Tibet Sprague (he/him) to Everyone 19:21
Great topic: how can p2p shift how power dynamics are established and play out?
Daniel Mello-Mattos to Everyone 19:21
Is it being included a way to add p2p hardware resources by users choice?
LX Cast 19:21
Maybe define what you mean by “power” then- very vague and many meanings
Tibet Sprague (he/him) 19:23
Perhaps related to the book Walkaway by Corey Doctorow which is so good.
Mamading 19:23 (Edited)
It's a cultural reference to a novel by Cory Doctorow, Walkaway which has a deeply P2P ethos.
Eric Harris-Braun 19:24
Walkaway is reference to the book by Cory Doctorow.
The idea is that it's actually possible to walk-away from damaging social spaces by virtue of open-source of function, but actually ownership of the data of the group instead of it being held by intermediaries.
Day Waterbury 19:28
I am endeavoring to hold space for this convergence along with allies in DWeb, CTA, and many others. I have a placeholder page for at https://openhaven.net (nothing much here yet). I would like to begin to build a convergence matrix in collaboration with the entire ecosystem of P2P projects.
Steve Vitka to Everyone 19:29
Kevin, do have links to this data sovereignty order?
Daniel Mello-Mattos to Everyone 19:21
Is it being included a way to add p2p hardware resources by users choice?
Tibet Sprague (he/him) 19:29
We definitely need that too
Alex Lion Yes! 19:29
Good evening wiznerds
find the olace where you cn operate
relational interrupt beats technical
Steve Vitka 19:31
We need a protocol to communicate compatible protocols!
Kevin Erwin to Everyone 19:31
https://dodcio.defense.gov/cmmc/About/
Mamading to Everyone 19:32
"Relational interop precedes technical interop!"
Steve Vitka 19:32
The problem is all relational remote tools are still garbage
used to be Platforms
You to Everyone 19:33
Then Protocols not Platforms
You to Everyone 19:33
Next level is Open Commons based peer produced constellations that are themselves extensible and morpheable
David Joseph to Everyone 19:34
My approach: define primitives that give us a sufficiently powerful descriptive language
Tibet Sprague (he/him) to Everyone 19:34
What standard bodies are working on p2p protocols?
Kevin Triplett 19:34
ToIP (Trust Spanning Protocol) might be a viable protocol, since it attempting to be standardized and is fairly agnostic (plus provides mechanism for protecting at the meta level)
infrastructure agnostic
what is the goal
how would you define it in a langauge that could be understandable by all stake holder
backward inductive process
precise language
Daniel Mello-Mattos 19:21
Is it being included a way to add p2p hardware resources by users choice?
Tibet Sprague (he/him) 19:29
We definitely need that too
Tibet Sprague (he/him) 19:39
I helped build the Holochain based Volla Chat for Volla Phone last year, they are working on adding mesh radios to every phone now
agents that make prmises
ToIP (Trust Spanning Protocol) might be a viable protocol, since it attempting to be standardized and is fairly agnostic (plus provides mechanism for protecting at the meta level)
Tibet Sprague (he/him) 19:35
https://trustoverip.org
Kevin Erwin 19:36
this one directly ties to our work in the encryption layer, we made the 8th and 9th layer
Day Waterbury 19:40
TSP is not explicitly P2P, but it allows for explicit declaration of transport so that it no longer implicitly requires HTTP as DIDComm effectively did.
Kevin Triplett to Everyone 19:34
ToIP (Trust Spanning Protocol) might be a viable protocol, since it attempting to be standardized and is fairly agnostic (plus provides mechanism for protecting at the meta level)
Tibet Sprague (he/him) 19:35
https://trustoverip.org
Kevin Erwin 19:36
this one directly ties to our work in the encryption layer, we made the 8th and 9th layer
Day Waterbury 19:40
TSP is not explicitly P2P, but it allows for explicit declaration of transport so that it no longer implicitly requires HTTP as DIDComm effectively did.
Tibet Sprague (he/him) to Everyone 19:37
Moss is a lot like p2p Hylo
Day Waterbury 19:41
Is there a viable path to evolving it in that direction?
Tibet Sprague (he/him) 19:41
That is of course one of the main problems, people want their tech to be fast, with accurate data that syncs quickly, and they tend to care about that convenience more than things like data sovereignty and encryption. That is changing somewhat, folks are adopting Signal, but mostly only as much as the tech still works close to as well as what they are used to.
You to Everyone 19:45
No one solution fists them all
You to Everyone 19:44
Yes Day we shoud work together to take a new look at the entire ecosystem of projets and iititative s and synthesize new ideas and learning
Day Waterbury 19:45
Yes, please. Connect with me on Signal @deiim.69
You to Everyone 19:45
CRDTs are great but horses for corses
It is not a technology problem we need to figure out wht is really required just above the threshold, the sweat spot as Alan Kay its all for humans
Day Waterbury 19:47
@serenity I would love to talk more with you about these points you’ve raised if you would like to follow-up on Signal @deiim.69
You to Everyone 19:45
No one solution fists them all
You to Everyone 19:44
Yes Day we shoud work together to take a new look at the entire ecosystem of projets and iititative s and synthesize new ideas and learning
Day Waterbury 19:45
Yes, please. Connect with me on Signal @deiim.69
You to Everyone 19:45
CRDTs are great but horses for corses
It is not a technology problem we need to figure out wht is really required just above the threshold, the sweat spot as Alan Kay its all for humans
Day Waterbury 19:47
@serenity I would love to talk more with you about these points you’ve raised if you would like to follow-up on Signal @deiim.69
Alex Lion Yes! to Everyone 19:48
https://luma.com/snxl0oub
Tibet Sprague (he/him) 19:48
Was it at that gathering where folks decided to build on NextGraph? Would love to hear how that decision came about
Kevin Erwin 19:48
ive gotta jump but for sure will review the recording and looking forward to this! -- FYI, ive got direct contacts at sysarmy for latam and we can get them involved as needed
Day Waterbury 19:48
I feel like most of the RegenOS peeps are building platforms that could potentially use a coherent P2P architecture under the hood.
Alex Lion Yes! to Everyone 19:48
https://luma.com/snxl0oub
Tibet Sprague (he/him) to Everyone 19:48
Was it at that gathering where folks decided to build on NextGraph? Would love to hear how that decision came about
Kevin Triplett 19:49
It was within the Allelo project where the decision was made. Day has the details.
At the gethering in Czechia, we discussed Hive, Hyfa, Allelo, and other projects interoperability
Kevin Erwin to Everyone 19:48
ive gotta jump but for sure will review the recording and looking forward to this! -- FYI, ive got direct contacts at sysarmy for latam and we can get them involved as needed
Day Waterbury to Everyone 19:48
I feel like most of the RegenOS peeps are building platforms that could potentially use a coherent P2P architecture under the hood.
Zach Miltz 19:49
“How we
might start operating as a forest?”
Tibet Sprague (he/him) 19:50
I do know that the design of Holochain has biomimicry at its core. I’ve heard Art talk a lot about creating new DNA for new types of organisms that incorporate technology
Kevin Triplett 19:49
It was within the Allelo project where the decision was made. Day has the details.
At the gethering in Czechia, we discussed Hive, Hyfa, Allelo, and other projects interoperability
Kevin Triplett 19:51
Also Planetir
Tibet Sprague (he/him) to Everyone 20:01
Loved seeing that Vana project with spotify!
https://www.vana.org/collectives
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/09/spotify-peeved-after-10000-users-sold-data-to-build-ai-tools/
Gotta run myself, thanks all for a great conversation!
Mamading to Everyone 20:04
https://www.reddit.com/r/degoogle/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeGoogle
Day Waterbury to Everyone 20:08
@Alex Lion Yes! can we get your Fathom transcript after this call?
Nara to Everyone 20:09
Good meeting, gtg!
Day Waterbury 20:09
@Daniel Mello-Mattos great to see you here! Would you like to say a little something about your needs and use cases?
@Daniel Mello-Mattos great to see you here! Would you like to say a little something about your needs and use cases?
Daniel Mello-Mattos 20:10
I dont have much to say except a deep thank you to you for pointing me Rust. I am diving into it to make that platform real
Day Waterbury 20:10
https://signal.group/#CjQKIIA5ANwJVBazPA9Cyd4LLZXyQhORe1elpy92QUoHsym0EhDwuldban1gBZOxWwBjVsCt
Hi all, appreciate all I’m hearing from y’all! Sorry I can’t verbally participate today.<
